E5 /E10 petrol?

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Johnnyboy
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E5 /E10 petrol?

Post by Johnnyboy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:25 pm

Hi Guys.

Someone has just been winding me up about whether an RX7 Fb is OK with "E10 Petrol" (ie up to 10% ethanol).

I had no idea, but it turns out E10 is written on all the petrol pumps at the filling station I use :oops:

On investigation (https://www.acea.be/publications/articl ... -standards and the "fuel compatibility tables" download) I discover that:

1. The UK changed to E10 standard in 2011,
2. We were on E5 (ie. up to 5% Ethanol) before that (so what is the big deal...),
and
3. Vehicle manufacturers produced lists at the time of (older...) vehicles that were OK or that they recommended not to use the new stuff.
4. Mazda went the "these are OK" route, but only went back to 2002.

ie. "E10 petrol is cleared for use in all models with petrol engines introduced in and from the year 2002,
Mazda6 (GG/GY) and models with petrol engines introduced thereafter, i.e:
 Mazda2: DY/DE.
 Mazda3: BK/BL.
 Mazda5: CR/CW.
 MX-5: NC.
 Mazda6: GG/GY/GH.
 CX-5: KE.
 CX-7: ER.
 CX-9: TB.
 RX-8: SE
"

So no mention of RX7's being "cleared"...

I presume this is not an actual issue or I would have heard about it before now (or is it just me being unobservant??)

John
John

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Re: E5 /E10 petrol?

Post by gt_james » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:36 pm

Hi John,

Unfortunately yes this is an issue for you. The fuel system in these cars wasn't designed for ethanol content in the fuel, so the flexible lines, plastic parts and rubber seals wont be compatible, add that to the fact they're probabaly old an perished, it's asking for trouble. Try to use fuel with no ethanol in, such as BP ultimate, or drop the tank and change all your flexible fuel lines, and in the engine bay etc and o rings in the carb for ethanol safe modern type hose.

On one of my cars all the fuel lines were renewed when I did a 13B conversion, and I now use whatever fuel, the other car I have I still need to change the lines, but it's a fairly involved job and I haven't got around to dropping the tank yet. I do use E5 but I don't use E10, although to be completely safe I should stick to no ethanol. it's also a good time to check the tank is in good condition, many RX7s have a rusty tank!

I know of quite a few old cars have had fires that have been related to old fuel hoses and ethanol degrading the fuel hose causing a leak.

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Re: E5 /E10 petrol?

Post by Johnnyboy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:40 pm

Oh Dear.

Thanks James.

John.
John

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Re: E5 /E10 petrol?

Post by ian65 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:28 am

Interesting thread, I’d never heard of any of this or even thought about it.
1986 Series 3 Elford Turbo
http://rx7fb.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2400
New custodian of 'Gus', K plate series 3
1992 Peugeot 205 1.9 GTI
1975 Honda SL125 Street Scrambler

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Re: E5 /E10 petrol?

Post by Johnnyboy » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:44 pm

More digging

1. The UK "committed to" Ethanol petrol in 2011
2. We have since been on E5 (ie. up to 5% Ethanol) but in practice the oil companies couldn't get enough Ethanol and did not start implementing it in their "premium" (ie. "ordinary"...) petrol until 2013 and even so the percentage concentration was initially very low (but has been growing).
3, I understand 98/99 Octane "Super" petrol is currently Ethanol free and "can" remain so until at least the end of 2020 (which is not that far away). However some people are reporting E5 labels appearing on their local Tesco's "Momentum" 99 octane and Shell "Super" 99 Octane.
4. The government and manufacturers accept that Ethanol degrades hoses and seals on "older" cars and "corrodes some (carburettor!!!) alloys" but don't seem to much care.
5. Now petrol companies are being pressured to start rolling out 10% Ethanol fuel (labeled E10), and a lot of people are concerned that this may be a step too far for "old" cars. There is a lot of discussion about whether E10 "premium" will be rolled out to replace the current E5 "premium" or "E0/ super" pumps or as an extra fuel, and petrol stations are upset at the implied cost of installing extra tanks.
6. In 2016 the government published that there were nearly 1,1 million cars on the road that were built before 1990 plus a further 1.1 million built before 1980 (ie. 2.2 million "old" cars!), and that all of these would be unable to use the new E fuels. They went on to estimate that by 2020, 1.5 million pre 1990’s would be scrapped and only 320 thousand of each age, (640,000 in total) would be still on the road and needing modification to the fuel system!
7. Personally, I would have thought that the scrappage figures would be the other way round as all these "old" cars are owned by people who will try to keep them on the road if at all possible, and that comparatively few would be scrapped by 2020, not three quarters of them....
8. The government then went on to cost the proposal on the basis of an average cost of conversion of the fuel system (including pipes, tank and carburettor/fuel injection pump) of £535 per car (2016 money, but it sounds very cheap to me!) which comes out at a cost of £350 million.
9. Just to be clear, I think that both the 640k and the £535 are very low and the real cost to "us" will be maybe a billion £... happy days for garages doing conversions..
John

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Re: E5 /E10 petrol?

Post by Johnnyboy » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:50 pm

Nothing to do with RX7's, but this also affects "old" motorbikes (read "pre 2000"), which several of my friends are proud owners of, and which the Government has explicitly excluded from its impact cost calculation.
John

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Re: E5 /E10 petrol?

Post by gt_james » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:25 pm

98/99 is not currently ethanol free, the only one I know of that is ethanol free at the moment is bp ultimate 98, momentum and v power 99 have had ethanol in for years.

£535 to change all fuel system components sounds very cheap, especially as some cars may need parts making.

I don't think old cars will go from 2.2 mil to 64k myself, this age of car is currently on a price increase and many are being restored not scrapped due to the retro car movement.

Ethanol has a very high octane, so higher octane fuel often relies on the ethanol to increase the octane rating, without more expensive ingredients. Ethanol free super unleaded is an exception not the rule!

Ethanol is actually a good fuel for many reasons if your car has the fuel system for it.

Johnnyboy wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:44 pm
More digging

1. The UK "committed to" Ethanol petrol in 2011
2. We have since been on E5 (ie. up to 5% Ethanol) but in practice the oil companies couldn't get enough Ethanol and did not start implementing it in their "premium" (ie. "ordinary"...) petrol until 2013 and even so the percentage concentration was initially very low (but has been growing).
3, I understand 98/99 Octane "Super" petrol is currently Ethanol free and "can" remain so until at least the end of 2020 (which is not that far away). However some people are reporting E5 labels appearing on their local Tesco's "Momentum" 99 octane and Shell "Super" 99 Octane.
4. The government and manufacturers accept that Ethanol degrades hoses and seals on "older" cars and "corrodes some (carburettor!!!) alloys" but don't seem to much care.
5. Now petrol companies are being pressured to start rolling out 10% Ethanol fuel (labeled E10), and a lot of people are concerned that this may be a step too far for "old" cars. There is a lot of discussion about whether E10 "premium" will be rolled out to replace the current E5 "premium" or "E0/ super" pumps or as an extra fuel, and petrol stations are upset at the implied cost of installing extra tanks.
6. In 2016 the government published that there were nearly 1,1 million cars on the road that were built before 1990 plus a further 1.1 million built before 1980 (ie. 2.2 million "old" cars!), and that all of these would be unable to use the new E fuels. They went on to estimate that by 2020, 1.5 million pre 1990’s would be scrapped and only 320 thousand of each age, (640,000 in total) would be still on the road and needing modification to the fuel system!
7. Personally, I would have thought that the scrappage figures would be the other way round as all these "old" cars are owned by people who will try to keep them on the road if at all possible, and that comparatively few would be scrapped by 2020, not three quarters of them....
8. The government then went on to cost the proposal on the basis of an average cost of conversion of the fuel system (including pipes, tank and carburettor/fuel injection pump) of £535 per car (2016 money, but it sounds very cheap to me!) which comes out at a cost of £350 million.
9. Just to be clear, I think that both the 640k and the £535 are very low and the real cost to "us" will be maybe a billion £... happy days for garages doing conversions..

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