Won't start help!

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Threesevens
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Won't start help!

Post by Threesevens » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:31 pm

Had a service done yesterday including plugs filters, fluids oils etc and plugs and the starter sorted out.

When I bought the car I drove back 200 miles from Somerset stopping on the way and the car restarted fine.
I drove it for three or four days and it started first time every time.
Then the starter motor failed but I was able to start it easily with a bump start.

Then I had the service, the starter motor worked and the she started but wouldn't idle. I had the same problem before the service.
The mechanic tried to adjust the idle screw but that didn't seem to help much and couldn't get it to settle at 900 revs. Previously after a run it would settle at about 900 and not cut out.
The mechanic left and I tried it a few minutes later but it would not start. I tried to bump start it but she wasn't having it.

This morning the mechanic returned saying he thought the engine might be knackered as she is giving off some white smoke. He said it might be compression issue and that is why it wont start.
He tried a compression test but I am not sure the results mean anything when a standard tester is used. The results were about 75 for each but I don't know what this means. Also because she wasn't able to start the tests were taken on a cold engine. The engine might be worn as it has done 68k miles but I don't think this is causing the non-start issue.

Eventually we put back the old plugs and they looked the same but had a slightly different number although both sets are NGK
After squirting a little oil down each cylinder and some spray through the air filter intake she did start although would cut out if you let the revs drop.
She wouldn't restart unless we squirted more spray through the air ilter intake.
It would run all day if you kept the revs up at about 2500 revs but as soon as you let them drop she would cut out.
The mechanic has left and of course it won't start. He is trying to take guidance from someone else and return early next week. He is not familiar with rotary engines but is a well known trusted bloke but has probably reached the end of his knowledge.
He still thinks it is related to compression but I find that hard accept as it started on the button everytime before the starter motor packed in. I feel it is carb related as it starts with the magic spray squirted in to the air filter in take.
Can anyone help as i don't seem to be getting anywhere, literally!! :)
Cheers
Kevin

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Re: Won't start help!

Post by Lucky » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:37 pm

Are you getting fuel? If it's stood for a while the filter/lines might have clagged up. The fuel filter is a bit poor, to be honest and easily chokes up

White smoke would imply coolant. Does the exhaust smell sweet and/or feel greasy on your skin? 12As aren't as prone to water seal failure as later engines but it does happen

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Re: Won't start help!

Post by TOOL » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:12 pm

I'm not a million miles away.
Listening to the cowbells

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Re: Won't start help!

Post by Threesevens » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:35 pm

Hi,
Thanks for your comments. The mechanic has just returned with his mate who thinks it is a carb issue. I think the plan is to remove the carb and soak it in vinegar and use compressed air to clean it. Fingers crossed
Kevin

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Re: Won't start help!

Post by mc turbo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:08 pm

wa1shie@aol.com wrote:Had a service done yesterday including plugs filters, fluids oils etc and plugs and the starter sorted out.

When I bought the car I drove back 200 miles from Somerset stopping on the way and the car restarted fine.
I drove it for three or four days and it started first time every time.
Then the starter motor failed but I was able to start it easily with a bump start.

Then I had the service, the starter motor worked and the she started but wouldn't idle. I had the same problem before the service.
The mechanic tried to adjust the idle screw but that didn't seem to help much and couldn't get it to settle at 900 revs. Previously after a run it would settle at about 900 and not cut out.
The mechanic left and I tried it a few minutes later but it would not start. I tried to bump start it but she wasn't having it.

This morning the mechanic returned saying he thought the engine might be knackered as she is giving off some white smoke. He said it might be compression issue and that is why it wont start.
He tried a compression test but I am not sure the results mean anything when a standard tester is used. The results were about 75 for each but I don't know what this means. Also because she wasn't able to start the tests were taken on a cold engine. The engine might be worn as it has done 68k miles but I don't think this is causing the non-start issue.

Eventually we put back the old plugs and they looked the same but had a slightly different number although both sets are NGK
After squirting a little oil down each cylinder and some spray through the air filter intake she did start although would cut out if you let the revs drop.
She wouldn't restart unless we squirted more spray through the air ilter intake.
It would run all day if you kept the revs up at about 2500 revs but as soon as you let them drop she would cut out.
The mechanic has left and of course it won't start. He is trying to take guidance from someone else and return early next week. He is not familiar with rotary engines but is a well known trusted bloke but has probably reached the end of his knowledge.
He still thinks it is related to compression but I find that hard accept as it started on the button everytime before the starter motor packed in. I feel it is carb related as it starts with the magic spray squirted in to the air filter in take.
Can anyone help as i don't seem to be getting anywhere, literally!! :)
Cheers
Kevin
hi m8 did u change the fuel filter? as lucky says if its the old one it could b clogged or maybe the fuel pump is on its way out? brand new compression on a 12a is I was told 9.4 bar = 136 psi so 75psi = 5.2 bar is very low & usually means it needs a rebuild! but when its tested cold the comp is higher than when tested hot which reads the true comp results so that means its even lower when hot, firstly get a proper comp test & go from there but don't leave it flooded as the fuel will eat all the water/oil seals & then u will definitely need a rebuild & it will even happen to a piston engine which they call bore wash cheers mick 07894 707535

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Re: Won't start help!

Post by ian65 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:54 pm

Kevin,
as the lads have commented above, the first thing to check is that you are getting fuel...... can you hear the fuel pump running and if so, is it actually delivering fuel to the carb..... pull the fuel line off the carb and put the end into a jam jar and turn the ignition on and see if the fuel is coming through. Your car has stood for a good few years and rust could have developed inside the fuel tank which is now finding it's way through the fuel system...... check the fuel filter next to the fuel pump ( under the passenger side of the car just ahead of the rear wheel.)
If you are getting fuel to the carb then the carb may need a rebuild or at the very least, cleaning out.... a simple job that you can do yourself..... a rebuild kit is available...... unleaded fuel is horrible stuff and if left to go stale will turn to varnish and clog the jet in the carb...... my guess though is that as the car drove well when you drove it back form buying it, you may have sucked some rubbish out of the tank if the fuel level got low and into the fuel filter, pump or carb and it's impeding the flow of fuel. Interesting that it fires up when you put some fuel or easy start down the intake which suggests a fuel supply problem. Of course, you may also have the opposite problem and it may be flooding which will lose your spark and wash the oil from the surfaces.
A compression test on a proper rotary compression tester is the only true way to check the health of the engine but your engine would need to be pretty knackered for it not to start. Just to give you some indication, I had my last Elford tested and the readings were 5.3 and 4.6 and the car started on the button, first time every time and pulled like a train and it's still going strong now.... see here.....

http://rx7fb.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=93

Don't worry too much about white smoke...... they all tend to do it..... they can kick out white smoke on tickover for ages..... you need to get them out on the road and get them nice and hot to stop it.

Elfords data sheet gives 900 revs as an idle speed but I've never managed to get mine down to that and keep the car driveable..... Elfords need more revs when pulling away and setting the idle a touch higher doesn't hurt.

Is your starter working ok now? These engines need to spin over at a good speed to fire up.... if it's turning over slowly, it won't start..... it'll just suck fuel through ( assuming your fuel system is good) and flood the engine...... there are numerous threads on here on how to clear a flooded rotary engine.

Sounds like a fueling /carb issue.
1986 Series 3 Elford Turbo
http://rx7fb.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2400
New custodian of 'Gus', K plate series 3
1992 Peugeot 205 1.9 GTI
1975 Honda SL125 Street Scrambler

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Re: Won't start help!

Post by codge » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:58 pm

One of the most knowledgeabe brains on here is saying he's not far away.
I'd jump at that offer if I were you.

The carb has possibly pulled a bit of dirt through if the fuel filter at the rear axle has clogged up.
So your mechanic & his mate might well be on the right track......but there's no substitute for knowing what you're looking at under these bonnets.

Edit note .....As I've been typing Ian has just posted more or less what I was thinking.

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Re: Won't start help!

Post by ian65 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:27 pm

codge wrote:One of the most knowledgealbe brains on here is saying he's not far away.
I'd jump at that offer if I were you.
absolutely... no question. Tool's the man. th:
1986 Series 3 Elford Turbo
http://rx7fb.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2400
New custodian of 'Gus', K plate series 3
1992 Peugeot 205 1.9 GTI
1975 Honda SL125 Street Scrambler

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Re: Won't start help!

Post by Threesevens » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:30 pm

Hi,

Your comments are really helpful. The fuel filter was changed yesterday. I remember when i was driving my Gen 1 30 years ago back from holiday in Devon that caught me out and the AA didn't have a clue, so I made sure it was changed.
There is fuel getting through because he has had it running and he took off a pipe to the carb to show me petrol was pumping out when turned over.
The mechanic is still here cleaning the carb and it is in bits. I hope he knows how to put it back! White vinegar didn't shift the dirt and I still have some left so maybe I will go and pickle some onions later. I have just bought some Wynns carb cleaner hopefully that will do the trick.
Tool I may need to take you up on your offer if he doesn't get it going.

As far as the compression test is concerned that he did I have no confidence in the results. Does anyone know the best place to take it? I based in Loughton Essex
I will keep you posted
Thanks again
Kevin

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Re: Won't start help!

Post by ian65 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:32 pm

Tool may be able to do you a compression test
1986 Series 3 Elford Turbo
http://rx7fb.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2400
New custodian of 'Gus', K plate series 3
1992 Peugeot 205 1.9 GTI
1975 Honda SL125 Street Scrambler

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